Not to offend any fans, but what's with all the Sasu/Naru fics?? O.O

*shrugs*

Well, I don't know. I really thought that people around here were/are a LOT younger than me. They certainly act that way... So, I'm 30 and have been the same person my entire life; born a bi with a males point of view. As many others, I've been through a lot; err, perhaps a little bit more, when I think about it... Ok. Let me put it like this:

I have no such exam; but I've been at war and that was the easy part. I'm the daughter of a couple of _real_ heroes. It has always been expected of my very person to know the difference between right and wrong. My life (dna?) gave me the right kind of gadgets to make sure of my morals... But, I don't think that this is the same for others, ok?

So, I've never even looked to people more than 2 years older than me, and the same goes for those younger than me. So, I can't answer to getting turned on by someone a lot younger than I... what I do know is this;

No matter how realistic the manga/anime/story is - it's NOT for real. It's as frail as any of your random fantasy. No substance. And, because of this fact, people tend to handle it like porn. Scary, but easy. No thoughts, no regrets. No one gets hurt.

And people will yell at you if you trie to change this little... oddity.

I think that you have to blame our culture, Artemis. Sex is everywhere, even in the ranks of children.

But, YES. It's scary, really.

So... what do you work with?

Hmm, I have to admit I don't really understand your post I'm not sure what the culture has to do with the sexual abnormalities of adult women. You're talking about your morals, but I don't know what those morals are. And what "oddity" are you referring to?

What do I work with? I'm a teacher ... I'm not sure I understand the question...?

*hm*

Well. As I see it, there are some things to be said about the (our) western culture and how it (we) gloryfies sex and youth, at the same time. You should know this, being a teacher, and all. You probably see it everyday - how the kids struggle to keep up with the teens, and how they too drown in the commersials that more or less, molds them into the shape that our current worldwide fixation creates;

- youth and sex _sell_, Artermis. And you know it. Be it bad or just common. It _is_.

And, no - getting turned on by _sex_ is NOT abnormal. If adults - not ONLY women - likes watching the teens (15+) have sex, it's _because_ of the influense of our culture. The perfect woman looks like a sweet 16 years old sexually matured _girl_. And, the perfect guy has the body of an 18 years old football player.

You might have some nice exam to wave around with, that doesn't make your opinion the only one worth having. I can't see the abnormality in _reacting_ to the stimuli of a beautiful body; because MY culture feeds this very image too my subconcious EVERY day. Got it?

Yaoi serves as a FANTASY for most of those interested in it. Me, I'm just a bi that likes my lovers to like both sexes. So, I've been there, doing what some of you write about - it's NOT a fantasy for me, watching two hot MEN making out and having sex; so I feel a little disturbed when you call what turns ME on "abnormal".

If it's about the AGE of those having sex... well, that sucks. A lot. I would NOT like to have a bunch of ladies at MY age drooling over my kid, for sure. But, I do know that the virility and beauty of my kid, has been _worshipped_ through our ENTIRE history. Things WON'T change because we at this point in history has descided that 15 years old kids aren't adults.
History says something else. Look at all the other cultures; the Masais, the indians and what not: a girl that's older than 15 is about to be married and SO is a boy at the same age! With eachother! And, in some parts of the Cristian world, kids at the same age have their OWN kids...

So, this whole mess is about culture. No more, no less. And, we - the rich part of our world - have the luxury of creating and upholdning this strange stage of age we like to call the "teens". In every other part of the world, a kid more than 14 year old, is counted as an YOUNG adult.

So, put it like that and EVERY single person in this site, is watching a yound ADULT having sex. Simple as that.

And my morals? Oh, they go something like this; "the only acceptable is liking something that has your status, your age, and you possition in life". That counts every kid out, I think.

Okay, I sort of understand what you're saying, and you seem to make a number of points. Just try not to make it so personal, okay? We are having a discussion, not an argument. It's hard to respond civilly when you accuse me of "waving my exam around." Plus please understand that I never claimed to be the ultimate authority but am indeed simply stating my opinion. I pointed out my academic background to Arigatomina because she made the false claim that I was unaware that teen sex was common in both literature and film.

Once again, I want to reiterate my point: I personally find it very odd that an adult woman can receive erotic pleasure from viewing or reading about two people below the age of consent having sex.

That is a personal belief. It is also (somewhat) what this entire group is centered around.

Now, IF these young people are depicted as appearing or acting older than they actually physically are, that is different. Someone brought up Ichigo from Bleach. I don't personally enjoy seeing Ichigo in sexual situations, but some do, and I can understand why. He does not have the physique of a 15-year-old boy.

For the record, I teach young adults (18-21) in a university setting; I don't teach children. My academic area of expertise is in children's and young adult literature though.

That doesn't make my opinion more important than anyone else's. But it does suggest that it would be ludicrous to accuse me of being unaware of the sexual content in literature and film for children.

I never referred to what turns you on in real life as "abnormal," unless what turns you on is children having sex. If that's true, then yes, I do consider your sexual turn-ons abnormal, and I think the majority of the world population would, too. If you were to act on those sexual turn-ons, in most parts of the world, you would be facing jail time.

Your bisexuality has nothing to do with the discussion, so I'm not sure why you brought it up. You seem a little defensive when you talk about it.

I don't like to get personal, but yaoi/BL isn't really a fantasy for me. I don't know how to say this. I like to write because I like to tell stories. I've been doing it since I was a little girl. I am a character writer; my story revolves around my character or characters. I like to write romance because that is a big part of a character's life. However, I like to write romance, not smut. I dislike very much "porn-only" stories (or comics/doujinshi, for that matter). I am okay with the inclusion of a love scene if it adds to the verisimilitude of the story or adds a dimension to the character's psyche. I've included love scenes in my multi-chapter fics because people begged and begged for them. In truth, I find them dull to write and always struggle with them, but that's neither here nor there.

So why BL/yaoi instead of het romance? I am a strong feminist. STRONG. I find traditional heterosexual romance disturbing and distasteful. I feel uncomfortable reading a scene in which a female character is helpless and must rely upon a male character. I dislike the dynamics of so-called "heteronormative" romance, in which the female character is inevitably placed in a submissive role. For this reason, I also enjoy yuri quite a bit, even though I am straight.

And I personally would warn against looking to history for moral guidance. Slavery was common throughout the world at one point; so was the complete subservience of women. Certain cultures were considered less "human" than other (Western) cultures and were consequently nearly decimated.

And yes, men had sex with children.

(continued below)

How many of these child brides went to their wedding beds willingly and eagerly? How many of the boys who were part of the culture of pederasty in ancient Rome were pleased with their roles in life? We have both literary and historical accounts that tell us they were not.

You may call a 14-year-old a "young adult," but I (and in many countries, the law) still consider him a child. If an adult receives erotic pleasure from watching or reading about that 14-year-old having sex, I am not going to think, "Oh it's okay, in many parts of the world, he would be treated as an adult." No, I am going to look at the child and see that he is a child in every sense of the word (physically, mentally, emotionally).

And yes, I'm going to wonder about the adult who finds him ... attractive.

Ugh, by the way, I'm starting to get this little choked up feeling of dread when I click on this group I really really really really hate arguing. If we were doing this face to face, I'd probably be in tears by now

So, let's go back to discussing why all those SasuNaru fics exist and why we hate them (or whatever)

*GRIN*

Aha. Now we do have facts, and this I like. By the way - I studied history, and it's my field. Or more precisly - WOMENs history. *GRIN* You could call me a humanist, if you want.

Anyway... Nope, I like MEN. Not boys, never did. *urgh* Me being bi is just to point out the fact that I'm not a het female with no experience in the field of being with two _men_ (aka: the yaoiness that turns people on in this site) in action.

Well, yes. It gets personal when words like "abnormal" appears. So, whe can move beyond that, of course. But, I will react when an entire group is judged; me being the one to react and play the hero is rather common.

But, honestly, Artemis? I think you and I share the point of view. But, that won't change the fact that many of those in here, don't.

So, you teach young adults. But, yourself, in my culture, is of an age that we (as a joke) call "post-teenage". And, your are not older than I... So, I will address you as someone I've met on the street. Tears are not an option, then. *pleeease*

In my country, most people aren't older than 14-15 to have their first sexual encountment. AND, as I still have to point it out: in Sweden, the LEGAL age for a "kid" to start having sex is 15. When they are 16, they can marry or move out from their parents place. When they are 18, they can vote. And buy alcohol. *lol* So, still - we DON'T have to move further then to the nordic countries. Err, and again; we don't have a good reputation, either. *grin*

So, back on track.

Did someone react to my question, earlier?

Why is it that a fair skinned, blue eyed blond guy is mostly viewed as the uke? Yeah, I'm thinking about a Sasu/Naru now....

Speaking from the US, the pale skinned "damsel" is the Scarlet O'Hara look. Tanned women are only hot in movies and advertisements. In romance books, it's mostly the very pale skinned women who have to be shield from the sun. Blue-eyed blondes are big everywhere, from the Nazi's seeing it as the 'perfect form' to Japan seeing it as the ultimate 'foriegner'. The first time I went to yaoi con there was an auction where everyone bid on their favorite cosplayer and one of the guest doujinka bid outrageous prices for all the blonde guys - because she didn't have any back at home.

I think it all goes back to good and evil, light and dark. Men are bad, girls are good, men are tall dark and handsome, girls are pale light and pretty. Most ukes are girls, pale light and pretty. I'm actually curious that there are so many 'opposite' pairings with the classic "Japanese dark haired" guy being the uke. But I notice in those the 'guy' ends up crossdressing or looking extremely feminine to make up for his lack of "girly" blonde. You just can't get away from seme/uke norms. Unless you have strange taste. ;p

I'm tired of the seme/uke crap unless it's written extraordinarily well and the characters are...well...in character. Just once, I'd like to see some switching. Neither of them are "Please don't stick your pee-pee in there, mister!" uke or whatever. Both have dominating personalities, and I wanna see fiction/doujin like that dammit.

Oh I never said that what bothered me about Naruto was that his voice dub sounded like a child. What bothers me is that his voice actor just sucks lol. There is all this growling in outrage that he does that makes me feel embarrassed for him.