Writing Help

Thank you so much *feels guilt* you know Arigato its "frank" talks like this that help me the most. I'm no different than others, I get hurt when my stories are criticized but I understand w/o honest crtic I can never grow as a writer. Who wants sweet comments while the story as a whole is riddled with structure & grammar errors? .U_U. Especially "flow" issues that can or do confuse your readers. I really need to edit my stuff, I find myself becoming neurotic more and more to the point I can barely let go and post updates. My friend had offered to not only beta but "structure" my work so the flow worked; historical facts she would research as well assist me in devloping characters. I miss her more than ever now.

Understanding in black & white is the only way things "click" for me.
I love the way you narrate/discribe your stories. It is unique, I've only read one person who writes in a similar manner. Although no one truly duplicates your style.

The back and forth pov thing I do (A B A B taking turns with each paragraph) used to be really common in the GW mailing lists. The fics weren't very good, mine included, but it was the yaoi writers' way of getting around the two male pronouns. Think about it. You have a paragraph of smut to write, you don't want to repeat their names over and over, but there's no way of telling which "he/him" is which character.

"He curled his fingers around his wrist, making him smile at the tickly sensation."

Which guy is he and which is the his/him? Or is he touching his own wrist? There's no telling. If it's told from a detached third person you don't get into either of their heads so all the 'he did to him' and 'his reaction to his action' is very confusing. One of the big fanfiction criticisms at the time was the way yaoi writers keep repeating the character's names for lack of identifying pronouns. It's so much easier to write a scene with one him and one her. The solution was to use lots of "dark-haired boy" and "blonde" descriptors - and to break the pov with each paragraph. So one paragraph starts by dropping A's name and sticking with his actions and B's reactions (A being the he and B being the him), and then the next paragraph drops B's name and sticks with his actions and A's reactions.

I grew up on that way of writing to get around the pronoun problem. Eventually I got so used to being able to take turns seeing each boy's perspective, that I let it extend past the back-and-forth smut scenes and into the general story itself. I'd feel cheated if I had to go back to impersonal third or a single third pov. I've had complaints about it. Justified complaints. Doesn't matter. To me it's as natural as describing actions during speech, the way he says something, what he's doing during the rant, instead of clearcut 'he said she said'. More complicated? Yes. More confusing? Sometimes. More satisfying to me as a reader and a writer? Absolutely. So I'll keep doing it no matter what anyone says.

^___^ I'm glad you will, I love your way and it never becomes boring. Your descriptive style help me develop my "some times lengthy" style. *not copy i dont think anyone can keep up w/you* I just reevaluate "what" is missing and try to correct it. I got a long way to go..i'm up for the challenge. Lol.
Have you ever noticed how some stories have too many -----> he said; she said. How do we get around that? Or is it ok to just *drop* the s/he said when there is an exchange between 2 characters?

Thank you very much for helping me.

I noticed the first time I read a Harry Potter book I cringed at all the "saids". My mom had pushed it on me for the "easy to read, appealing to the masses" factor, hoping to con me into selling some books for the youngsters today who didn't grow up on C.S. Lewis and McCaffrey. The language is very bare. But...that makes it a really fast read. You focus on the dialogue and eventually you don't even pay attention to the obligatory "said". That's as close as you can get to writing a story in script format - write every line of dialogue the same way so that all the reader notes is the person's name (speaker) and what they said. It works. If you've never had to read through a class full of peer stories written by would-be novelists, you'd probably see nothing wrong with minimalist dialogue. Me...I'm a variety girl.

I want to know how they're speaking, yelling, whispering, shouting - there are thousands of "said" verbs and no human being every just "says" something. I read stories like that and I see someone talking into a microphone. I can't visualize any *real* conversation happening where the two people stand perfectly still with nothing but their mouths moving. People fidget, they multitask, they pause so they can think, they use the wrong word and jump to fix it, they stutter and ramble and rarely speak in complete sentences, they use slang and weird phrases that probably only close friends know. That's what I want to read in my own stories - real live dialogue spoken (or yelled or mumbled) but real people who keep being "alive" while they're saying their lines.

On the other hand, when you have a scene with a whole bunch of talking and the two are countering each other (arguing, talking over one another) then you can leave the descriptors and "saids" out altogether. Once the reader gets into the back and forth, they don't even need to be reminded which character is talking - they'll be hearing it all in their head reading as fast as a witness to the argument would be taking it in (think of a tennis match where you follow the ball without paying attention to the people wielding the rackets).

Realistic dialogue is another of my peeves. ^^; Stephen King used to be really good at writing "real" dialogue. He's awful about going on rambling tangents, but his old books have genuine things real people would say in a normal conversation. Rowland, on the other hand, doesn't even attempt real dialogue with most of her characters since the big speeches are just expositions she couldn't fit into the story itself. He used the descriptive dialogue cues to make the characters even more real, she left them out because they wouldn't change the 'canned' nature of the dialogue itself. [That's just me rambling about a pet peeve, I *do* like the early HP books.]

I love writing dialogue. I think it's because I find it really easy to do a lot of the time. I even love it to the extent that I sometimes let a character take care of the narrative if it's for something that happened in the past. For example:
"Do you have any idea how drunk you were last night? I had to hold you up just so we could have a conversation. Though you talked more drunkenese than actual English. I couldn't understand half of it. And you threw up on my new shoes."

When there are two people talking I tend to leave out most of the "said". Instead I try to be clear on who says the first line and rather drop a name (or nickname) in from time to time.
Another example:
"For goodness sake Vincent, will you stop being an ass?"
"Shut it blondie. I wasn't talking to you."

I think a lot of the time the words spoken can say a lot about how they are spoken. I think (hope) that you see the argument in the example above, even though I didn't include any description.

Conversations between more than two characters are a lot more tricky. Especially if it's the kind of conversation where everyone wants a say almost on top of each other.
You can sneak away from using a lot of "said" in those too, though it requires more thought.
Example: (I'm full of them tonight, aren't I?)
Jessie was livid and yelled at Lucy:
"You should have kept your mouth shut!"
"Why? You said you wanted him to know! And you can just shut up Mark."
"I didn't say anything!"
"You were going to. I could tell."
"I was not, but I agree with Jessie anyway."
"See? Mark agrees with me."
"You can both go to hell."
And with that Lucy stormed out the door, leaving her two friends behind.

I hate writing dialogue.. as necessary as it is. I'm fairly decent (maybe?) at writing it, I know all the rules and add descriptions/actions. I hate using "said" for the simple fact that its completely unnecessary in my opinion. Unless my characters are speaking in some other tone or making more than a simple statement, I don't bother with all the synonyms for "said". I like to feed my dialogue.. make it emotional....

Using part of Ferus' example because I'm to lazy to come up with my own. >.> Sorry!
His eyes, incredulous. "I didn't say anything!"
"You were going to. I could tell," her words spilling heatedly.

Maybe slightly over done, but you get the point...?
For some reason dialogue makes me feel stupid though. I think its because I don't talk a lot around people, other than my family members and when I do, I always say something off the wall and people stare at me. (My family is used to it... kinda) So when writing "natural" dialogue, it makes me feel awkward and I wonder if what I'm writing is considered "natural" by normal standards. Does that even make sense? Maybe I just need to work on my social skills.... >__>

@Ferus37: I like reading plays for the way the dialogue itself builds the scene. Less need for action cues that way.

But, and I know how anal-retentive devil's advocate this is, I don't use people's names when I already have their attention. I'd say "And you can just shut up" while snapping around and looking at Mark. And I'd smile at Lucy (smug and snotty) and say "He agrees with me." It's probably due to where I grew up and my family in particular. There were a whole bunch of us together for Christmas and no one used anyone's names unless it was two of us off by ourselves gossiping about a third, or Mom yelling at one of us to get our attention. ^^; Unless the people just met and they're not sure of everyone's names yet, I can't see them naming each person they speak of.

Then again, Rowling has adults do this a lot and she's very rich now. Ignore me. ;p

@melodysnow: I talk all the time. I never keep quiet even when I know I should. I tend to speak first and grimace later. So my casual character dialogue is quick free-flowing with lots of self-correction and 'ums' and 'yeahs'. I have trouble doing the characters who think carefully before they open their mouths, and shy people who don't talk much as a rule. I'm sure what's casual and normal to me is hyperactive (and maybe childishly dumb) to collected well-spoken people.

Arigatomina: I don't actually name each character all the time in conversations. Those were examples on how I do it when I feel the readers could use a reminder of who has the word at the time. To show it's not always necessary to use "said" or synonyms thereof.

I read an advice by Stephen King once. (It may have been in his book "On Writing") I found myself agreeing with it and so I try to follow it. (Sometimes I can't, but heck, even he said he doesn't follow it all the time.) The advice was to try to avoid the use of adjectives when writing dialogue. (To for example use "he murmured" instead of "he murmured quietly") It goes with what I said before, to try to make the dialogue, ad situation, say something about how things are spoken.

In my family we're different. We use each others' names and nicknames all the time in conversations. Same when I talk to my friends. Always have. (Lines similar to the one with Mark are quite a common occurrence when more than two of us are talking.) I guess it's just a question of what you're used to.

I think we all use our own conversational experiences when writing dialogue. In my family we have very few arguments, but we tend to have long discussions. (On just about any subject known to man. Sometimes I have to go look up information so I know what I'm talking about.)

What I do when I need dialogue in a story is let the characters talk to each other in my head. I put them in the current situation and just let them talk it out. When they're done I sit down to write it out. Sometimes it gets messy and sometimes they actually use their head before talking. It's not really my choice how they do it. The characters speak for themselves, quite literally...

I don't really know if I manage to pull off dialogue in a way that is interesting, natural and understandable. I could say you can see for yourselves in my stories, but I know that very few people here follow them, and it's not for me to tell anyone what they should choose to read. I do know that I have great fun while writing it though, and I hope some of my enthusiasm shines through.

@Ferus37: The idea of King telling people how to write makes me grin my fool head off. I mostly read his old stuff, but I adore referencing him as an excuse to ignore teachers and write what works for you.

Someone's complaining about your fragment sentences? His books are riddled in fragment sentences and it works because people don't *think* in complete sentences (The Raft, The Mist, Skeleton Crew). Italic thoughts are a crappy fanfiction thing? Nope, King's been doing it since Carry and it works great. Being accused of off-topic filler content? King would call that character-building stream of consciousness, even if it meanders off on unrelated topics for pages during a would-be dramatic scene (Dreamcatcher). You're long-winded with too many characters and a snail pace that seems not to be going anywhere anytime soon? Go read The Stand.

I don't like the self-insertion and Clamp-style self-referencing he's been doing in the Dark Tower series - which I do consider a "fanfiction thing" - but he stands as the best example of 'rules are meant to be broken.'

I never noticed how rarely he uses adjectives. You're absolutely right. It's odd. I guess it's the word choice and flow of the dialogue I like about him. I just checked Wizard and Glass (last book I reread) and it's full of said/asked with nothing to say how they said/asked things. His dialogue cues are just as nonexistent as Rowling's. I'm a little disappointed now. ^^; I thought I'd gotten the "lots of variety" for dialogue cues from him.

I finally finished a book called "House of Doors" by Brian Lumley that has what I was talking about. A paragraph per person, with the dialogue mixed into descriptions of what the character is doing while speaking, and how he speaks. It makes reading a lot slower and I admit I did give up on the book when I first tried to read it (teenager). Reading it now, it's just the detail and variety I try to emulate with my own stuff.

It really makes me wonder where I picked that 'style' up from. If it wasn't King, I have no idea. ^^; I've been doing it since I wrote my first 'horse' epic in a notebook in grade school. Old habits die hard and all that.

I envy you being able to remember dialogue so well. I do scenes like that, but I have to write them down while it's happening or I can't remember the exact wording. I never get it as good as the first time it runs through my head. I tend to jot down lines of dialogue quickly and then fill them in with cues and descriptions later. My early drafts look like a secretary's shorthand or something. ^^

Someone's complaining about your fragment sentences?... Italic thoughts are a crappy fanfiction thing?...

Well god, am I in a world of trouble! That's how I write. I don't see anything wrong with it though, as long as it enhances the work, rather than strips it of structure and maturity. I think as long as you understand the english language well enough, you can break as many rules as you want, and still be stylistically sound. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean, what is the best way to portray someone's thoughts anyway? Are you just supposed to continue writing, "he thought.. he thought..." all the way through it? I think I would get extremely annoyed, especially if you are writing about a mental disorder like depression. If the character's thoughts are an important element in the story, how do these literary nazi's (excuse the term) want me to write it?