Dutch Yaoi Fans

prone to corruption o.0 well, should I from now on set up a comittee to monitor your actions? Since you are the only one who have access to all these forms? For that matter you can altar the facts to fit into your own agenda! *revolucccioon!!*

Thanks everyone for your support ^_^ But it isn't really that bad, because I'm here in Holland anyway, still I should be careful. Oh yup, I already decided to look into the course manual of Gender Studies and maybe even talk to the coordinator, I can join a class just to learn something new (I cannot do the assignments because that would be too much work) And yeah I'm starting to have those: "I don't care what you think" thoughts. Funny thing, Mac, you said your family don't care? o.0 I think they do care, but not interpreting you being gay as a negative thing?

Lol, I fought in class too when I was little, but it wasn't really about being gay.. I live in like the ghetto of holland (bijlmer) so those schools were kindda though. They were all low life intelligent creatures (sorry about that, don't want to sound arrogant), but never mind all that I tend to see life more positively now ^_^

@heehee Oh Yaoi says nothing about any gay culture haha. Tolerance for those stories are part of the commercial business that surrounds it. Where money can be made, should be expoited even it's gay-themed. The gay culture in Japan is still very suppressed and not really encouraged, no huge gay parades there either. And literature & arts are the deviant side of society, explains why most gays are in art, literature, fashion and so on...

Ah Link, you grew up in the Bijlmer? I lived in Venserpolder for a few years and went to the youth centre, and "het bijlmer bad" for swimming lessons, so I sorta know what kind of kids runn around there. Though that was when I was 8-12, so it´s a wile ago. ^^ I went to school in the centre though, so I wouldnt know about the schools. ^^"

@heehee; well, China has an underground gay culture. There are clubs in the bigger cities, but there are police invasions all the time. It´s actually christianity and then communism that caused this attitude. In the past many emperors had male lovers and there were writers and poets that wrote about homosexuality (but most literature was destroyed when Mao Zedong rose to power and communism took over). Not that it was actually accepted to be openly gay, but still, it´s better than being terrorised, I guess. ^^

@wolfje, jup practically raised here in the Bijlmer... And venserpolder is one of the nasties tneighbourhoods in Holland, there are frequent knife fights over there.... even people get killed...
And I used to go swimming there too, maybe we have met before haha

@wolfje; It explains all the yaoi about emperors in the past...
should make one about the greek who had older men teaching younger ones about many things... Also the very first book that could be called a novel was about two men fighting for a young male beauty called "eroticon". Of course I decided to read that book for that course!lol

I must excuse for my absence the last few weeks, or am I so freakingly annoying that you're better off without me?

@ Chibi & Kreatio

Congratulations!!! Love is in the air lately,I see. I'm sure you'll all make cute couples xD.

@Link
The last few weeks, I'm starting the see your point. My BF is also Chinese, as you know, and he's parents would have great difficulty if they knew about me. I must admit that I had a kind of "culture shock", because he's the 4th generation here in NL, and my first reaction was (can't say this in English): "Maar we leven toch in Nederland?!". His parents know he's attracted to guys - they once caught him while visiting a gay website - but they do not know about me (yet). His parents are very much against homosexuality, it's a shame for them. They even made him sign a "contract" with them. For lack of a better word, I would call that contract paranoid. They say that if he "makes a wrong choice" (i.e. a relationship with a guy) his parents wouldnt want to see him anymore. (and even other things) I find that truly shocking. Apparently, family stands higher than an individual in Chinese culture - pretty different from our Western society in which the individual is the most important. I don't pretend to understand why they reject homosexuality, because I don't. I know it's something culturally, and it has to do with him being their only son. But do I fully understand their reasoning? I don't. I can't. At least not yet.

But for me personally, I'm very open about sexuality. I don't wrap towels around it, to use the Dutch expression. I don't find talking about sexuality and sex offensive. I actually find it the most normal thing in the world. Why make such a taboo about sex when it's something so basically human? Without sex, we all wouldn't be here - except for some growing number of KI, IVF, and even cloned persons. And let's be honest; it is kinda nice, don't you agree? Sex is about as basic as eating, actually. Without sex, humanity would just make it to the year 2100, the same without food (ok, without food, humanity would be extinct within a few months). Than why on Earth make such a fuss about it? And very logically, I can't see what's wrong with homosexual relationships: A gay brain is literally different from a straight guy's brain. The brain-area called the hypothalamus is something in between normal male and normal female. (The hypothalamus regulates the hypophyse, which in turn regulates hormonal processes. That doesn't mean gay guys have less testosterone than straight guys though). And even if it would be a kind of choice, what would be wrong with it? That would be like discriminating people who have another favourite colour than you.

I don't think there's something as 100% gay or 100% straight, though. Even if one were, one can't possibly know. For instance, I can't imagine myself having sex with a woman at the moment, but maybe I'll think different about that in 10 years. I can't decide who I fall in love with, can I? I don't care whether that person is a guy or a girl. I think we're all bisexual, only with some "dominant" side in most of us.

I'm just very open about it; I can have discussions about sex in a fully cramped train during morning rush-hour. And I don't really care about people hearing me. Do I know all those people? Nope, so why bother about them hearing? And if the people know me, they'll know I'm just open about those subjects.

But that doesn't mean I don't have my times when I find something "shocking". The first I personally met a transsexual, for instance, I found it weird. Nowadays, I don't care; as long as that person is happy with him/herself. Why should I make a judgement about something so personal? And even last week, I stumbled across something peculiar. It was a woman who had a relation with a guy that was having an homosexual relationship as well. It was a kind of weird "trio". But then again, I know some people who do something quite similar personally. But who am I to judge about that? If the persons involved are happy about it, than it's fine with me.

Oh Sander, thanks for sharing your side of the story and your experiences It really helped me to understand a bit more about my situation. I have heard stories about Chinese boys and they can be even more severe than signing a contract. Some boys will be kicked out of the house, dishonoured and denied access to the family ever again.

I think the Chinese society looks at society totally different than people here in Holland. In holland individual rights (esspecially the concept of Human Rights) are extremely important. In a Free society you should be able to theoretically do what ever you want personally. It is a good thing to to let your child 'learn' and 'experiment' about the world, learn from their own 'mistakes' and so on.... It's like an individual quest of life if I may put it like this. In the East there are far less cases where parents let their child explore the world. Girls are still pretty much protected in which their virginity is their most valuable asset. I'm not joking! Parents are very much responsible in how their child will end up in society and therefore should be protected from harms way which could impede a positive development of the child. One of those impedements or obstacles are, yes indeed, homosexuality. The individual development of a child its actually great, but whenever the child ends up in the big world, even if it's Holland, the child will certainly come across bounderies that may restrict access to gay people. Yes, in Holland it is certainly the case, therefore you are in the young branch of CoC huh, Sander

And parents in Asia just have a huge authoritarian control over their children, that is old fashioned and conservative, but holding on to 'believes' or 'customs' from ages ago are important for Chinese people to cope with staying here in foreign territory which is Holland. There are numerous cases of diaspora's (=ethnic groups outside the country of origin) who are even more conservative than people from their home country. Chinese in Holland overstress their own cultural background (polarize), to distance themselves from the majority group (=the Dutch). So, by stressing your own culture to the extreme will help to draw the lines of your cultural group more clearly..... with all the side effects of it, thus having a strong anti-gay stance.

And don't talk about biological physiology correlations with gay-identity................. It is impossible to prove it or say anything valid, because identity itself is performed and fractionally dependent on biological inferences.

I wish I could be like that flirting with everyone I wanted, that would be so nice haha Oh I had a presentation yesterday in front of the class for nearly 30 min and it was way over the time limit, but the teacher kept letting me continue, because I was in some kind of 'roll'..... I was feeling so myself and made some nasty jokes (I was so afraid to tell any homosexual related jokes because that would be a kindda 'coming out', but I managed to talk about gay censorship in Singapore without actually being a freedom fighter for it *thank god*) Afterwards a girl said that my presentation was so good, and I was so good that I could able to 'flirt' with the class >_< oh my, why are always the girls complimenting me....

Pfew, that were some major posts. ^^ It's about the same as what I learned about the Chinese culture in the Netherlands from my familie etc. One of the more interesting books about the Chinese culture and history within the Netherlands would be "Het huis van Han" by Karina Meeuwse. My uncle recommended it to me and I liked reading it... For the people who are interested in the subject (I am, so... ^^")

@Link & 10th plague: Guh, you guys sound so... academic ^^" Can't you send me some of that? I always write like a drunk grade schooler (hehe...) ^^"

Wow!! I was quite shocked to read your posts, Link and Sander... I didn't know that much about how big the culture differences actually were. It's kind of shocking to find out that because of culture, it can be so difficult to be who you want to be.
Yup, I know fully realise how spoiled I am having such an understanding family.

@Wolfje: Haha, I totally agree with you on that they sound so academic.
Oh, and thank you for the book recommendation! I would love to read it, so I'll see if I can find it ^^ I am interested in it as well, especially now that i've heard some things about it.

@Link
*quote*Some boys will be kicked out of the house, dishonoured and denied access to the family ever again.*/quote*

That's about the thing that the contract said - I read it (Thank God it was written in Dutch, instead of Chinese :P). Each time I think about it, I still find it a very repulsive thought. I just can't understand why parents would do such a thing to their own goddamned child. I've always learned that parental love is unconditional. But perhaps that's even a cultural difference. Yes, I can understand that they wouldn't like him being gay, and I certainly can understand them crying about it (my parents also cried when I told them I was gay, and it took some time (~2 years) for my mother to accept it wholly.) But I can't understand his parents to totally reject him.
Ah well, I'll have to live with it. It's probably not something I can change - even though I'd most probably try.

About the diaspora's: Although it's probably far less extreme than the Chinese<-->Dutch counterpart, I'm quite used to people overstressing their cultural background. It's pretty common here in "Limbabwe" to distance from general Dutch society. I also know some "Dutch import" who do the exact opposite: Being extremely (stereotypically) Dutch, just to make a point. I hate that kind of thinking.

And uh... everything eventually is a inference of biology/chemistry. Yes, love eventually just is a chemical reaction in ones brain, to put it very simple. But so is thinking in general. I couldn't type this message, I couldn't even think about writing a single letter, without some pretty impressive chemical reactions in my brain. THus, because chemistry plays a role in all thinking, differences in thinking can be explained by difference in molecular biology (=chemistry). Yet, nothing in science is 100% certain. You would need dogma's to be 100% certain of something, and if science is anything, it's not dogmatic. Yes, the "cause" of homosexuality goes deeper than only the hypothalamus, it was only an example. As I explained, I think we all are bisexual, with something that turns homosexuality "on" or "off", or something like that. It could even be that we all have genes that make us gay, but that in most people this gene is turned off (knocked down) (at the moment ). That may sound weird, but in reality, you only use about 1% of your total genetic information. About 99% of your DNA is offline Most studies indicate that homosexual tendencies have something to do with hormone levels during the foetal stage (which affect the growth of brain tissue). Yet, it's always a chance. Anyway, gayness is not a choice, nor a disease, nor some infectious thinking.

And I think you once said in the previous pages that there aren't any asian or black gay porn things. That's not true. They do certainly exist. Even in most porn libraries (which list all "genres") have "asian", "black" and "inter-racial" things. And aargh, I sound so like a "oversekste puber" when I say this

@ Wolfje: LOL, I'm flattered.

Lol another long post of Sander :P But I just can't agree with you on that molecular part. You seem to fall in the falicy of reductionism. It doesn't make sense to explain something which is socially constructed as homosexuality, in terms of biochemistry >_< Well, I can understand that you like to think that way since you study that..... but I rather look it more anthropologically (=my field of study ^_^) because you are taking all the 'feelings' away. It's fun to explain love as a chemical reaction but you don't actually REALLY REALLY explain what is going on So i hate talking about genes and what not together with homosexuality. It makes everything so horribly boring >_> (apart from that, gene's are only one part of the truth)

And I seem to be someone who wants world wide peace and harmony (if I'd me more good looking I'll run for mister universe), that is why I don't want anyone to get hurt or cry over me >_>

Haha, about that asian and black gay pairing thing. I wasn't the one who had to write a paper about it. It was an assignment from a friend who was following the course 'gender & sexuality'. He concluded that there were none of these pairings on the internet because he haven't seen them. He is gay, but I was on the edge of my chair to correct him, because I too (just like you sander, makes two of us oversexed pubers) have seen those pairings before. Thank god I didn't correct him, that would certainly followed by an immens silence (the conversation happened during a dinner with other students).... I have been keeping my secret for so many years, i'm not going to let it slip away just by this >_>

@Creatio en wolfje bedankt ^_^ I think I should talk less academic, because I don't want to be too distanced from everyone else Me wants to be friends with everyone ^_^