Dutch Yaoi Fans

Oh awsome you are taking the bureaucratic but democratic way huh ^_^ I hope the majority knows what it's doing >_<

Oh and Mac, it isn't as easy as it may look like to just say you are gay because you are XD I wish it was... I think you have been brought up in a far more 'openminded' and less conservative environment. And you can easily say that you don't care about other people, but in my case I do have to care about other people's feelings. My parents are from the 'conservative' kind and quite easily offended when it comes to this issue >_<... and don't forget about the Asian culture in general. In some of the countries it is still a crime (up to 2 years inprisonment, and saying you did it in private is NO excuse). And the social stigma's are even worst, it is a frontal assault on the perceptions of masculinity. Gay culture is underground and extremely 'deviant from the norm'. Most gay icons are just using their gayness to entertain people, and real activists are usually banned or denied a platform.

Plus there is another big difference between the East and the West. Feminism isn't popular at all in Asia, I mean those provocative activists from the 60's and 70's of women who protested naked on the streets for equal rights. Gay Parades are practically absent. I really can't see myself shouting it oud loud, no sorry I'm in a sense conservative too...

I have nothing against Gender Studies, I love it, but going to study it is quite a statement you see. If you are out it is hard to take the step back and undo what you have done. It is not funny to be rediculed and to create enemies before I even met them. I just envy people like you. I'm not saying this because I have low selfesteem, it's just that it is not as black as white as you think.

wow, I didn't knew you could go to prison for being gay, that's ridiculous

I think if your raised like a open minded person by your family you expect it to be the same everywhere. I grew up in a small village where people do gossip but mostly are very open minded. Lots of gay people live there and foreigners as well. I never really noticed it as something special till I heard stories about other villages were people who are different really have a hard time. You just are so used to those things. Even openminded people can have predjudices too. I do hope there will be a day that those things would be accepted though.

I can imagine that it's really hard to tell people about it. You never know how they might react, especially the people closest to you. I had quite a lot of trouble at school too, some time ago... -.- people at school still know me by the nickname "that lesbian girl". It's so lame! I used to be bothered by it, but not anymore. That's because all the people close to me are ok with it... it would be a lot harder if they wouldn't have been!

And it is indeed ridiculous, going to prison for being gay... but if you are raised with the thought that being gay is really bad, you just don't know any better...
It's a pity that these things still happen.

It's also easier for us to accept and forget that it's abnormal since we like stuff like yaoi and spend time being captivated by it!

You're absolutely right heehee...but also, we like yaoi because we're not bothered by gayness, right?

I also understand Link's reservations. Eastern cultures are so different from ours.
And I believe you Link when you say it's not so much about self esteem as other things like family and culture and stuff....
That's why I like talking to you. I want to learn about that culture (those cultures), even when I'm too chickenshit to go there myself As a western woman, I totally can't cope with that attitude towards females (or gay males for that matter).
Heck, I'm bothered when they don't take me seriously in a computershop, because I (a girl) know more than the salesman (a boy)... maybe that's also why I'm bothered that even here in the west lots of people are still uncool about gayness *grrr* (woopsy) *goes to cool off*

@Link: At least you can say what you want here, neh? ^^ I think I understand your point of view, and I think it´s good that you are so open about it here. It´s more knowledge for us as well (well, for me it is ^^).

Hm, unfortunately homosexuality is still a problem. I grew up in a *very* openminded family but when I was younger I went to school in a village in the "back area" of Friesland, and I had two gay friends (a boy and a girl) and they were called names and harrased all the time.

About asian culture in general I don´t know a lot. Chinese a bit since my uncle maried a chinese girl and my nephew is half chinese (and where there are chinese people, there is chinese familie ^^") It´s a huge taboo there though. My uncle has a gay friend and his girlfriend really had a hard time accepting that. She´s still digesting my mom´s situation. ^^"

@sas: Ah, so you go to computer shops to show off? Hehe. ^^ I get what you mean though. With animal things the guys always think you are a weak woman that can´t do anything properly (which can be abused very nicely as well; can you say "mule"?)

Well Maskelle, maybe our village is open minded, but i'm not sure about the stupid kids living there:P, and actually we don't know if they are that open minded as u think they are cuz we never asked or heard them talk about that sort of things.:P probarly they still think we are lesbians even after i had a boyfriend:S strange people living here:P

@wolfje: poor u, with the thin walls:P lucky for u, u have a own room now lol:P

It's a bit weird to hear that chinese are so closed-minded about gayness, when you see all their gay movies (and I guess same might go for japan, whilst they've got a huge yaoi culture)

And I do very much realize that it isn't all black and white, Link ^^. I just didn't realize that this was so hard for you (I figured your family knew already -dunno why, I just did XD-) And that you are having 'such a problem' (for lack of anything better to call it) is totally understandable now , but Gender studies is not just a gay and woman studie. A lot of people follow it (though... yeah mostly girls and gays XD, still I have had quite a few teacher who followed those courses who aren't gay, nor girls)

And I wasn't trying to offend you or anything (or push you into something you didn't want you, nor provoke you.) So I apologise for that if you feel that way.

And though it may not be that apparent, 'coming out' was not easy for me either >> even though my parents don't care, nor my brother, nor most of the friends I have now. And I have struggled with that for a long time. So even though I look very confident... it wasn't always so.

The reason why I am so confident about myself (or seemingly so) is that I accept myself for what I am (with all my odd curves and quirks) and I see it as someone else's loss if they can't deal with who I am ^^ (kinda cocky I know).

and I was often teased when I was younger... that ended when I nearly broke someone's nose after he ran into my fist (dumb ass) and then... kinda no-one dared to tease me, cause they knew that I could kick their asses (never lost a fight in my life :P, often ppl didn't even dare to fight me cause I could look very scary -dunno how, but it just happens, one person approached me once and said: "WTF?? You looked ffing scary, how did you do that?" and I was all like: oO "whut?" (but enough bragging XD)

and yeah I'm going for the democratic way cause I believe it is most considered (or more so then the bureaucratic one, which is prone to corruption)