Dutch Yaoi Fans

Well, I do think Rukin has a point. Just normal bed-time stories for kids with a gay theme (or just the mentioning of two guys/girls having a relationship) would be a step towards acceptance, I think. But I don't think it's only the teacher's task to show this to children, but it's the parents' task too. Small children aren't prejudiced yet - they're still innocent - they'll accept it way faster than adults would do. That's why I think starting with children is THE way to bring acceptance. I've heard someone (an adult) say at "Pauw en Witteman" about a year ago: "WE have accepted it now, but we have forgot to tell our kids". I think the guy was right. But I do think we wouldn't need to overload our kids with gay stories; just 1 in about 10 stories ought to be gay, for homosexuality occurs in about 10% of the population. And about people saying that God forbid homosexuality: I don't think - IF there is a God in the first place - that He/She/It would condemn homosexuality: why condemn people who just love each other? But devote Christians who take the bible very seriously are very hard to convince that homosexuality isn't a sin, because the bible clearly says it's a sin. I'll cite Leviticus 20:13 (third book of the bible): "[A man]Who goes to bed with a man as he would do with a woman does something gruesome. Both should be killed, and both caused their death themselves."


But hey, we should also be glad to live in NL, because this still is the most gay-friendly country in the world, don't forget that. Gays are widely accepted in the mass media here (look at the popularity of Paul de Leeuw, Gordon, Gerard Joling, Albert Verlinde etc etc). We were the first country to open our marriage to homosexual couples, and so on. Don't forget that!

@Link
Yepz, that "16-min boot" was the start for the nation-wide Jong&Out, but here in Maastricht we actually started earlier. About 6 months before this "16-min boot" we had our first youth-group. It was called "whatever", but it was a huge flop. This was due to bad marketing and a too wide target group. We then targeted at people from 15-25, but that's too wide, because you'll scare the younger ones (and their parents), and the older ones tend to think it's childish. After 1-1.5 year we put this whatever-project on hold, and we made it a Jong&Out project. Now, Jong&Out Limburg is pretty successful. Maximum age now is 18, with no minimum age. Parents are allowed to come as well.

@Mc
Yes, there are many young gays who still aren't out yet, and early coming-outs are good - I myself was 13/14 (around my birthday) when I had my coming-out - but don't forget it's quite a step for most of us. Not everyone has the guts to be out at a young age, but that doesn't make those people bad. I think a coming-out at the age of 18 would still be a very normal age. Over 21 may become a problem, but that doesn't make these people bad either.


Oh, and something completely else: I'm trying to find out if this guy at school is gay (you'll know why ). He's a bit "preuts", and usually avoids the subject of love - straight or gay, he avoids it nonetheless. But my gaydar isn't that well developed, so I need some advice . What should I watch for? Or should I just ask him whether he is gay?

@the19thPlague Haha you need some advice huh I can't really help you with that, because I believe it all depends on the situation. The only way you know if he's gay is to ask him. Even if you overheard that he might be Gay, it is better to double check it, if he is. The problem is when are you going to POP the question! And asking such a question is not exactly an opening question... When you ask it, it usually immediately means you are asking him out for a date! So..... you should try to be more thorough. If he denies talking about sex, you should try harder Ask what girls he like or whatever... Give names of famous people what they wear and so on. And squeeze the question: 'are you gay?', just between one of your question >_< lol

And sorry I cannot concur with you... I just can't understand why some Gay people want other people to interfere with the upbringing of other people's children.... If they raze their children as far right wing orthodox Christians, let them be! There are so many orthodox Protestant communions in Holland, they can do whatever they want, vote for SGP and CU (=anti-women and anti-gay political parties). They live their lives happily and I live mine ^_^

And it's overly optimistic to believe Gayness is accepted... There are enough beating ups of gays in Amsterdam just because they were holding hands... I am not joking. Discrimination by using HOMO to curse is still normal. The dirty feeling when two guys are kissing is still there. You can change people rationally, but emotionally will be extremely difficult.
You can also turn this around, I know enough gay people who think straight couples are dirty: 'girl coodies, eewwww'... So it works both ways too...

And Gay people in the media is everywhere. In Singapore too.... They are the 'entertainers' so they relieve all the social taboo impediments. It does not mean they are accepted.... They just have a different status in society which allows them to be deviant, while most everyday forms of deviancy are repressed and you can eventually risk to be thrown in jail....

anyway I don't want to discourage you Sander, I love what you do and the bravery you have It's just not my thing >_>

I think both Link and the10thplague have a point, and I didn't mean to overload the kids with gayness :P I agree with the10thplague on that one, like telling 1 on 10 stories containing homosexuality and showing as parents to your own kids, if you have them, that it's okay to be attracted to the same gender. And that quote of the bible just plain scares me O.o
it is however optimistic to say homosexuality is accepted in the Netherlands, when I came out of the closet this year, I've been called names and been ignored for a long time. And I've been lucky! A friend of mine was first uncomfortable around me, but gradually accepted it. He says he kind of sees it like haveing a female friend, he just never wants me to fall in love with him :P
I agree with Link that you shouldn't interfere with the upbringing of children, especially if you don't have permission from their parents. Parents themselves must decide wether or not to accept homosexuality, but if you yourself as a parent accept it, then you should pass that acceptence on to your children.
About the religion stuff Link said I'm not so sure, though I'm against 'politieke partijen' that are against rights of women and homosexuals, that's directly in conflict with the 'GrondWet'!

@Link: no that's not me in the picture that's Aiba Hiroki *drools* I'm trying to learn japanese and I tend to drive my friends nuts by talking in japanese to them XD (just a few phrases though)
@the10thplague: if you're friends with him, or at least know each other relativly well, you can try asking it during a talk about random stuff. Though I wouldn't recommend asking out of the blue without any 'aanleiding'.

first ... I didn't read all the posts (srry) but they are waaayyyyy to long XD. I'll try to keep it short ^^. I must agree with Rukin's first point that 'gayness' must be educated... partly. Kid's must learn that it is ok to be different and nothing to be ashamed of.

Secondly only kid's can bring upon the change amongst themselves. By that I mean that kids amongst themselves must create an air in which it is ok to be different. That's the place where it most often goes wrong. Teasing, bullying, etc. Kid's can be very cruel, especially at a young age. That air of acceptence can't be forced upon them from above. Although having tolerant parents and a tolerant school does help... somewhat.

And I don't really mind when there are certain factions who don't agree with me being gay. I even can accept that they believe that I'm doing something wrong. What I don't accept is the fact that these people don't have the damnest decency to respect my choices and respect the fact that we dont see eye to eye. And the fact that they want to force their believes on to others. That is what bugs me the most.

It is all about respect. Respect the fact that someone things, acts, believes differently then you. Who are you to go and tell me what to do? Who are you to say what right and what is wrong? believe all you want but dont force it upon others. That is the most degrading and indecent thing one can do. That shows only a lack of respect.

That being said. Yeah kids know at an very early age. It there hasn't been a point that I didn't know. I just didn't want to admit it or it never even occurred to me.

Besides that 10thplague... wth are you talking about??? at this moment we are slowly becoming one of the most intolerant countries in the world. Our laws are the most gay friendly... yes. But that's it. The prime minister is against gay marriages. Gays are more often then naught cursed at and attacked in the streets. The only reason you don't hear that much about it, is because it is old news.

And those gay bn'ers ... well you are naming quite a few I don't want to associated with and they were famous long before they came out for their homosexuality.

now back to my main issue. The education of the masses. What we need is a gay superhero. Gay's on tv. Gays in the books, gays, gays everywhere. We are queer, here and get used to it. I would have thought it a beautiful bold statement if Rowling would have made Harry Potter gay XD. Or something along those lines.

Just a figure that appeals to many and has it's own coming out. And it would be nice to make a Dutch queer as foke ^^, just a little something for the late night telly to rival gtst and grays anatomy on a Monday evening.

And about the bible. Well we must take in to consideration in which time it was written. A time in which the people needed to reproduce cause otherwise there would be no-one to work the land. And the Christians were fiercely trying to break with Roman regulations, because they had been so suppressed by them for so long. And the fact that the biggest best-seller of all time is related to a deity... doesn't mean we have to take it to seriously.

but I'm probably ranting again and it is far from a short post XD. oh well I might as well make it a bit longer. @10ths. Just ask him and if he says no, believe him (there's nothing as annoying as someone who keeps asking you if you are or not even though you have answered him before ^^) And even if he is gay and is lying that he isn't, let him, he's just not ready.

and the gaydar part...well a queer friend of mine once said: 'only ten percent of the men who say they are straight are really straight. The rest isn't really gay, but something in between.' so there aren't any trail tell signs (xcept if he is snogging another guy. That is usually the sign someone is gay... but you'd probably have figured that out already ^^)

lol so far for the short reply XD

You said you were going to keep it short, Mc Denno?

Well, what I meant was you also have to think what you already have. There's no point in only focussing on the negative parts. It may be in our Dutch nature to complain about everything. Yes, there'll always be "verbeterpunten", and of course we'd want to tackle them all, but lets be realistic. You can't solve everything. Utopia does not exist. So 'make the most of now' as Vodafone would say

What I'm trying to say is that emancipation has to come from both sides, from the straight community but also from the gay community. Nowadays, gays have a special gay-thing for almost anything (gay tv, gay radio, gay sauna's... just to name a few), and that may be part of the problem of inacceptance. If you want to be accepted in main culture, you'll have to participate in that same culture. Shielding yourself won't help a bit. That doesn't mean you can't be yourself, though. But it does mean that you should be open to jokes. A bit "zelfspot" won't hurt. A bit paradoxical at first, but "zelfspot" makes people accept homosexuality a lot faster.

But indeed, it would be very naïve to think that there is full acceptance. And don't think I don't know the problems. When I had my coming-out about 4,5 years ago, I suddenly lost most of my so-called "friends" (ahummm... friends?). And of course there were some kids who tried to bully me. (But I've got my revenge.... One guy got almost expelled from school just because of it ) But it seems to me that when people get older, they accept it faster. When I got to the "Hogeschool" the reaction was "Oh, you're gay. Oh, ok.". And it was just that; they don't seem to care a lot. And you wouldn't want to see us flirting in class - sometimes, it's pretty extreme

<quote>(BB code won't work here)And I don't really mind when there are certain factions who don't agree with me being gay. I even can accept that they believe that I'm doing something wrong. What I don't accept is the fact that these people don't have the damnest decency to respect my choices and respect the fact that we dont see eye to eye. And the fact that they want to force their believes on to others. That is what bugs me the most.
</quote>

Exactly! I can't agree with you more....

About that guy: The problem is that he's a friend. I get along with him a lot. If he wouldn't be a friend, all would be a hell lot easier. If he'd just be someone I'd only superficially know, I'd just ask him whether he'd be gay or not. But now that he IS a friend, I don't seem to have the guts to ask him. It would just be, like Link pointed out, like asking him on a date - letting him know that he means more to me than just plain friendship. (Oh, this sounds so girly). What I'm afraid of, is that our friendship would end if he'd be straight and know that I'd like him. But ok, I've already sort of asked him to go on a date with me. (I've asked him to go to the movies with me. He said he'd like to. So we're going to the movies next week.).
And, Mc Denno, you are right. I don't really believe that 100% gay or 100% straight even exists. I think everybody is this planet is more or less bisexual.

Oh, and btw: I'm going to Laveloss tonight, a gay party - but not forbidden for straight people. There are quite some straight guys (yes, straight guys) who go to it as well. So I'll do some yaoi marketing. I've already given some yaoi to 4 people at school.
*Hopes yaoi will eventually reign*

hello. I just joined so just saying hi.

Hey AndrevS I hope you like it here. Feel free to state your opinion or tell us something fun ^^, we're always happy to react.

And of course you must use a bit of humour and Irony to put those weird ass straight ppl to rest. Still, as you said 10th, it needs to come from both sides. And I'm not focussing only on the negative parts, all I point out is that although we have all these rights, doesn't mean we are done. We have to keep fighting for those rights and keep making sure they are respected and kept in place. And we have to fight to get it fully integrated in our society. Al though we have have a time in which all these things were more or less accepted, things have begun to change and it is slowly starting to slip (in some points) and I just think we should be aware of that and respond accordingly.

And 10th, about that guy... I said ask him, not jump him. Just ask if he's gay, like in a "I'm just curious" way and not in the "oh please be gay, cause when ever I see you pass I have a boner the size of a Sequoya" You don't have to tell him that you like him, in order to ask him if he likes guys. -.-

Hey AndrevS! Welcome ^^

Phew, i've finally fought my way through all the things you guys have written!! But it was worth it... very, very interesting.

I think that there's kind of an overall problem with people who are a little different. I see it at my school all the time, it makes me sick... There are people who're very nice, but they just happen to have something the others don't like. It's difficult to go to school every day if no one in your class likes you.
So, it's not only the case with people who're gay, but also people who are a bit too 'big', people who're handicapped in some way, people who don't talk that easily...

So fighting for acceptance is very important to me. If more people would be accepting these 'weird' outcasts, then the rest of the people would soon follow.
I was bullied myself at some time, when the whole school started nagging me about being a lesbian or not. It did make me very miserable at the time, and although I can now happily ignore it, I can easily imagine that it can break you up. I wish bullies like that would know what they're doing.

It would be a lot easier if everyone would realise that you should always be open to love, whether the person you love is a guy or a girl, same gender or not. *pfffft, that sounds so clich&#233;*

Funny thing is, I spoke to a guy some time ago, and I found out (it was a total surprise, just a weird coincidence) that he was in the school as I am. And when I told him my name, he said: "oh, that lesbian girl!"
I just thought...Funny, so they're still talking about that? ^^

Oh, and 10thplague, good luck on your 'date' with him! You can probably find out there, just... bring up the subject. If he IS gay, he will... probably.. tell you.

Oh kewl we have a lesbian on this forum *joke* I'm so sorry to hear you had such a horrible time on secondary school, Kreatio But secondary school is always like that.... Kreatio, weren't you the Batman/ Heath Ledger fan? You sound like a 100% girly girl to me, weird how they can ever come up with such a bullox story...

And about gay hero's in Holland. We have plenty of them. I am not referring to those nichterige Entergainers.... I actually despise them.. but that would be another story. Real gay hero's are those that are able to reach quite difficult places by NOT (yes NOT) stressing their Gayness... People know they are Gay but he doesn't ADVERTISE that fact. I mean, come on, why are you making a clown of yourself. It will also enforce gender bender stereotyping. Some can take this as a pinch of salt, joke about it, but in real life you will notice people on the streets will use those stereotypes (you people call it a Gaydar o.O) to categorise gay people even more.... ok ok I'm being to abstract.... But I think I'm a bit romantic in this way. I love couples who have been together for years and never announce world wide in the press that they are gay. Really, most gay people are of the ordinary kind who does not feel an urge to say "I'm gay" when greeting someone for the first time........ I hope I'm clear lol

But on the other hand.... the gay community needs people like Jack Mcfarland or drag queen extragavanza if you understand what I mean.... As always I like to add the political dimension to the story ^_^: If you need your voices to be heard, for equal rights, acceptance, local groups and subsidies from the government (= very important!), you need to make clear you are TOTALLY different....... All those gay right movements shall never be possible without political help you know. Therefore it is important to know what you are beginning with when you enter the public arena of politics are press......... >_<

There are plenty of Gay articles all over the place here in Amsterdam (Gay-capital of the world lol)... It would be nice to have Gay literature on public media (newspapers/ television), but I just think the market for Gay related themes is limited in Holland. There are Dutch series where gay themes are mentioned, but not centered around... You have to look for American shows...... I've watched QueerAsFolk (QAF) for a few season, but I think there is too much FRONTAL NUDITY omg, i'm not trying to be 'preuts', but it can be really annoying after a while! I don't want to see your willy, it's much nicer to tease me by NOT showing it >_> I prefer Will & Grace when it comes to this...

@10thplague Oh and good luck with your date!!! gogogogogogo haha, be careful that it may turn out bad if he doesn't like gay people. You need to know him very well first.... I know stories of 'best' friends leaving forever because of this (I don't really know if you can blame your friend if he ever walks away, since social pressure can be IMMENSE)