a controversy

I should start by saying I'm not a psychologist and by no means do I entend to major in psychology, but I have a habit of analysing things especially when I see a trend in things. So what I'm talking about today is characters in literature. I've noticed, for quite some time, that people love to make their characters girlish and in some cases blatantly mention that their characters look like girls. I didn't think anything of it at first, but as I saw more of it, I started wondering why. Onviously, we all embrace yaoi and are for boyxboy relationships, so why must we make our characters look like girls.

My conclusion was this: Some of us aren't as cormfotable with homosexuality as we think we are. Due to this, there is an unconcious need to make the characters have feminine qualities so they can seem more "normal". It's almost like we are trying to make the homosexual relationship we've formed in our stories seem hetero by making one of the character seem like a female. In doing so, the relationship almost seems acceptable and "normal."

I can already see some people saying this is ridiculous. Either way, I hope to hear people's views on this. Some of you probably think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill but hey, It's just how it is. So if you've literally read this thread then your views are very much welcome.

Ps. I've posted this twice, on this group and on the public chat because I want to hear the writers and readers view.

While the perspective you're advocating may very well exist on some level to a number of authors; I believe that in general, the phenomenon has a more to do with the way society as a whole defines "beauty".

I don't believe I'd be too far off to say that many of us view the male form as beautiful. However society as a whole has long held to the belief in the idea that men are rugged severe creatures, men are "manly" so to speak. And has almost exclusively relegated delicate and refined beauty to the female domain. It is because of this that either consciously or subconsiously many authors portray the beauty of certain of thier male characters in a very feminine light. As that is what thier readers as well as they themselves most easily relate, and are accustomed, to.

Society is sick on so many levels that honestly the way in which we view eachother as proper men or women barely rates. The fact that so many of us are unaware of the true abberation of the way we have been taught to think is simply sad.

I agree that a lot of it has to do with the writers being uncomfortable with actual yaoi and/or overidentifying with the uke. The ukes are just avatars (Mary Sue) of themselves to pair up with the semes. With fanfiction, they tend to pick already girly or young characters and give their own personality to go with the already pretty face (OOC+self-insertion). With original fiction, they just make fantasy versions of themselves with token dicks so they can call it yaoi. [Which raises the question of why it's more comfortable for "het fans in disguise" to write psudo-yaoi than it is to just be true and stick with writing het.] I gave a little mini-rant on this in another group here, that can be read in my lj - Link. The question raised was "why girly ukes?" and my response - because it's written by girly girls who identify with the uke. That simple.

I'm the same way with my own characters. I just prefer violent mean ukes, who are only "feminine" in looks or intelligence (being smart is girly, being a moron is being a classic anime leading male). The only way I can make my ukes more "manly" is by having them fight more often. I refuse to dumb them down and or give them nasty (boyish) habits they don't have in the anime. Since I tend to like the overly smart pretty boys, making them ugly (manly) isn't an option, either. I write fanfiction, though. I'm not sure what I'd end up with if I wrote original yaoi.

I do like macho ignorant ukes in my djs and anime, but I've never written them, so I don't know if I could get into their heads or not. I'm not macho or ignorant, so I doubt it. ^^; I'd end up writing the story from the POV of the smooth intelligent seme instead, and since I'm a female who lacks the body part necessary to describe sex from a seme pov, I'd have to stick with soft stories. No fun in that.

I usually attribute it to multiple reasons, but immaturity and unfamiliarity with gay men tends to top my list rather than a discomfort with homosexuality. I suppose because the few people who I KNOW are uncomfortable with homosexuality on a deeper level have writing that shows it. A lot more shame on the part of their characters, a lot more righteousness by the society around the couple, and there is this tone of disapproval, almost as though the yaoi is fun because it's 'naughty' rather than because it's romantic or enjoyable.

I suppose I tend to believe it's mostly ignorance because it just makes sense to me. If one has only read about gay couples in manga or fiction, that person doesn't have a lot of experience to draw on. Simple ignorance. Then if they run into a lot of androgynous or feminine characters in yaoi, and they like yaoi, copying that seems a logical result. Yes, a really good author would go out and research, but a large portion of writers are just doing it for enjoyment. As they mature and write more, I think they start to develop a little more variety.

I have definitely noticed the self-insertion that Arigatomina mentions, but again, I think that's more a case of immature writers. The more experienced the writer, the less I tend to notice that phenomenon. Of course, there's a LOT of new writers out there.

But I do believe there are other reasons some writers do it, as well:
- Often, I view the androgynous or feminine male as a fad, like other body types. Like barrel chested men were attractive 50 years ago and leaner, muscled men are attractive now. Or the skinny near-anorexia men popular in the 70's. I see androgynous young men in a growing numbers today, so it strikes me as a fad for the moment.
- Some people LIKE the gay men who are sweet and girly, IMO. I mean, the reality does exist, although admittedly not in the same overwhelming numbers as they do in fiction. I think the enjoyment of that sort of thing is difficult to define, as hard as why someone's favorite body part is a man's ankle.
- re: just the girly physique (not addressing the personality), I admit I like smaller physiques because I have a size kink. It doesn't matter if it's men with men, women with women, women with men - I love one character MUCH bigger than the other. And it doesn't have to be the 'bottom,' I just like the size difference. Couldn't really say why.

All in all, I guess I'd just say that I think most of the fad is not due to something negative, as it were. Simply part of the growth of a writer. There just happen to be a LOT of writers growing right now.

I don't really agree. I think the reason characters, or the stereotypical uke is written in a feminine way, is mostly because this is fiction written by women for women, and women have different interest (not sure it's exactly the word I'm looking for) than men.

I recently bought a gay book written by a man and it was vastly different than what I'm used to in the genre. I've read erotic gay fiction written by women, it's usually focused on romance and things that arouse women, while the book I was reading was very occupied with how endowed the characters were (I felt like it was sort of shounen jump formula - every guy the "hero" slept with, was bigger than the previous XD), more descriptions of the genitals and the pubic hair, all kind of stuff that I usually don't pay mind to when I'm writing, and there was romance eventually but very different than what I'm used to, not 'romantic' romance if that makes sense (the story was more pornographic than erotic, I think). It was an interesting read, but I still like bishis better than bears XD

Myth mentioned an attention to details in male written m/m romance versus female written m/m romance. I agree completely. The way men view sex and sexuality is far more visually oriented and therefore in most male written stories I've noticed a lot more physical description (of genetalia yes, but of other traits as well). Female written fiction seems to focus more on the inner life of the characters with sex as a more spiritual or emotional combination of people (regardless of whether or not the sex actually means that in the story) whereas there is a rawer more primitive sense of sexual enjoyment as I've read in male written romance.

There is a good deal of self insertion in any writing, though I do find that this is a predominant problem in yaoi that favors woman with a penis syndrome. The reason many of these writers chose to write m/m fiction as opposed to m/f fiction is simple. It is easier to hide behind a male character and claim you're not writing yourself than to hide behind a female character and deny that you're writing yourself.

Similarly this is why I tend to write m/m stories... I find it easier to escape my own opinion by writing men (none of whom I think are particularly feminine in any way). When I write m/f or f/f I find a lot of my own opinions and views tend to sneak into places they shouldn't and into characters that they don't fit... I have an easier time stepping out of my perspective when my characters can't possibly have my perspective... meaning I favor writing m/f or f/f in other universes or vastly different circumstances or m/m where my perspective is all about stepping inside the characters and not stepping outside of myself... if that makes sense.

Ultimately I think that there is a lot of feminine perspective on sexuality that ends up in m/m romance simply because its a woman who is playing to a predominantly female audience. I try to read as much male written romance as possible and get as much of the male perspective on what I write because its tough as one gender to really embody and express the other regardless of how androgynous-ly one might view oneself.

I believe that there are multiple reasons why feminine characters are so popular. The "woman-with-a-dick" syndrome may be one of those as well as just the usual fad that disappears with time or something else. Immaturity of a first fic or maybe uneasiness with homosexuality, self-identification of a female author... etc.
And as Thuleando said, the fact that the idea and conception of beauty has changed. A crying man or a man who shows his feelings - no importance if he is straight or gay - that's not something unthinkable. And a man who is not broad and musculous can be viewed as handsome and attractive nowaday. To me, this is the main reason for femini characters.

I'm a woman myself and I do write fanfiction too. It really depends on which couple I take (some characters just ARE feminine from the start - in appearance at least, the character is another topic... e.g. just try to make Ciel from Kuroshitsuji/black Butler look manly... that would just not fit him... ok, it's shota - just an example), which setting I choose, what's my mood and maybe what the request was when I set up a plot. Of course it's easier to write het or yuri since I'm a girl and then have at least one p.o.v. covered realisticly for sure but while writing yaoi I miss both the bodily experience and the mental setting. But if it's only about the feeling a character may have I think I can affirm that the matter of the gender may not be that important. As for differences between men and women... I try to set myself into the character or if this fails I have to set the story aside or (unfortunately) use stereotypical stuff that you can find in many stories (no plagiarism! I loath that thing... the use of overused settings and feelings/positions/etc. happens only when the story is a commission...). So sometimes, when the story calls for it one of the guy (or both) is very feminine but then again I really like it when the couple is even and balanced... Sometimes no feminine guy is needed or maybe he has at least a really manly character (e.g. Kanda Yuu).

Of course it's true that yaoi is mostly written by women for women but who do you want to blame for that? The readers? The writers as if saying: "only men can write good yaoi stuff" (that's discrimination, you know?)?
I absolutely support an increase of male authors and I'd really appreciate it when some of my male readers would tell me stuff like: "Yeah you know, I think a guy would rather react like this and that..." "The romance is too feminine..." and give me advice on how to improve my writing because this would profit to both sides in the end.

I never really got the point of making guys look like girls. If you like yaoi, the obvious conclusion is that you like boys. And I mean boys that act like boys and look like boys.

When I write, I always try to make my male chars act like boys. The story itself is not overly romantic specialy because of it (and because I'm not a big fan or romance myself even though I'm a girl). I even like to add fights, making the plot interesting, and leave the romance as a not so important part of the story.

I have read some stories with feminine ukes, pretty girly like, and I've liked some of them. I don't think the author has to be "inmature" to write that kind of stories (the ones I've read where really awesome, and I'm sure a newbie is not capable to write that), they just have to like it. It's more a matter of tastes than anything else, I guess.

I honestly never noticed^^; At least until I read this.

From the top of my head, all the yaoi(manga and anime) I own don't really have girly guys with the exception of...I guess Ayase(Okane Ga Nai). Funny enough, Ayase is probably my least favorite uke out of all the yaoi own...b/c of how girly he is and I(a girl) have more balls than he does.
But characters, not in shonen-ai or yaoi but I do slash, that look like girls actually don't act girly. I'm personally thinking of Lucius from Fire Emblem and Yuri Lowell from Tales of Vesperia. I find Yuri very manly, enough that I can't even decide who should top between him and Flynn XD
The only exception is probably Zelos Wilder(Tales of Symphonia) who I think is pretty girly for a womanizing guy BUT I see him as the seme if that makes any sense at all^^;

So I guess I don't really like that stuff and do accept boy/boy wholeheartedly? XD

Regarding writing and doujins:
I read and write fanfics more than original BL/yaoi. When I read fanfics, I don't like it when the ukes are out of character, such as acting girly. Or when they're already a bit girly, I don't like it any more when they make them MORE girly.

When I write, I do try to keep characters in-character. I don't think I ever made the characters act or do feminine things though(hopefully).

A guess an almost perfect example is my the Squall(Leon)/Cloud pairing. Cloud is the uke but I never made him act uke-ish unless it's during his Crisis Core time period. And even when he's uke-ish, he's not that girly. One reader even stated how awesome it was that despite he's the uke/"the woman role" he "still kicks ass." Oddly enough...that same story I got that first review, someone else wanted a more girly Cloud and I was just "eh...no..." Didn't say that but personally, as pretty-boy as Cloud is, I don't like putting him too out of character b/c I don't think he's girly at all.

I personally don't know why a very feminine boy is needed, if at all(I mean, come on, I paired 2 manly guys together!). It's like a stereotype if anything...
But maybe you're not too far off of your theory. It does make sense...in a sense. But it's hard to say for sure since I don't write or read many stuff with too-feminine men^^;

I think that chicks like to make their guys feminine because of:

• urges to self-insert
• overly 'roided guys are fugly
• overly 'roided guys are insensitive
• overly 'roided guys aren't romantic
• overly 'roided guys are fugly

Sometimes, things are really as simple as they seem.